peter2 1 Report post Posted October 17, 2011 Hi, I'm new on this forum...but i've been reading some very interesting threads by quite impressively prepared guys. here is the story: alfa 147 2.0 selespeed, 130k km, ev0 changed last year (due to kangarooing behaviour) I was in fifth gear, city on, pressed the brake pedal, selespeed tryed to shift to forth, clutch did disengage (is it the right term?) but nothing, it was not able to do it, the N was flashing on the screen, no other gears could be engaged. The engine stayed on, the selespeed kept on trying to get in neutral. i turned the engine off, and it then refused to go on again. next day i used FES and saw there were some errors. drained the clutch, performed a EOL calibration-->failed (3rd and 4th position error)-->tried another time, success. Engine on, gears ok, but when i got to the fifth gear, exactly the same problem arose: same procedure, FES+Clutch drain+1 failed calibration+1 successful calibration. straight to the mechanic. FES says clutch rod is 28.5 so just on the higher limit. Pump, pressure, and dpressurizing falling limb values are ok. when it gets stuck, FES shows these values all gears work perfectly, but when try to shift down from fifth, it hangs....even when i try it with engine off. mechanic opened the gearbox but everything was fine. i'm implicitly ruling out valves, as all the gears except fifth work just fine. is this a too hazardous conclusion? can a sensor fail on only one gear? thank you very much for your support! Pietro Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xyy81t 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 first thing i would do would be to adjust the clutch rod. it should be between 28.0 and 28.5 so yours is a tad over, also i think i read somewhere that it is better off being closer to 28.0 than 28.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 That pressure is higher than it should be, I would watch that on it's own while the ignition is at mar but not running, if it's going above 60bar then replace the accumulator Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So chew on those apples! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 first thing i would do would be to adjust the clutch rod. it should be between 28.0 and 28.5 so yours is a tad over, also i think i read somewhere that it is better off being closer to 28.0 than 28.5 i agree with you, but could it be the cause of my problem? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 That pressure is higher than it should be, I would watch that on it's own while the ignition is at mar but not running, if it's going above 60bar then replace the accumulator mmm i had not noticed that value before...it shouldn't be higher than 55, am i right? at that pressuree the pump stops, right? given i'm quite familiar with selespeed operation, could you please explain to me all the meanings of parameters from 2nd to 5th row in the image i linked above? thanks a lot i'm more and more convinced my problem is related to one of those position sensors... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 first thing i would do would be to adjust the clutch rod. it should be between 28.0 and 28.5 so yours is a tad over, also i think i read somewhere that it is better off being closer to 28.0 than 28.5 i agree with you, but could it be the cause of my problem? No. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So chew on those apples! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 first thing i would do would be to adjust the clutch rod. it should be between 28.0 and 28.5 so yours is a tad over, also i think i read somewhere that it is better off being closer to 28.0 than 28.5 i agree with you, but could it be the cause of my problem? No. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So chew on those apples! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 i told the mechanic to swap gear selection and gear engagement sensors, but the problem is still there (would it need a recalibration after the swap?) i don't know what to think...if only i were in uk...i would bring the car to you smaky!! i really dont know what to think let's summarize: 1) all gears (including R) engage and disengage smoothly, except for fifth that does not disengage. 2) mechanic said the fifth movement in the gearbox is fine (he had a look at it) 3) all valves activate when prompted to with FES. i would even dare to buy an ev1 (71719390), stick it in and see what happens...but what if it's ev2 to blame...it's got a different plug from ev1, so i can't swap them....help Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 19, 2011 Forget the EVs, they are not the problem, the clutch rod is 0.08mm too long but that won't cause this either, as for 5th refusing to disengage then it is either a hydraulic pressure problem of the gear synchro is worn, having seen thousands of Sele gearboxes I can confirm that wear will be there but it normally means it won't engage, so that leaves the pressure issue, so does the pump prime when you open the drivers door? Does the pump prime every 10 seconds and the warning beep sound every minute? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So chew on those apples! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 19, 2011 ...wear will be there but it normally means it won't engage those are the same words my mechanic said when i suggested to check the sincro ...so that leaves the pressure issue, so does the pump prime when you open the drivers door? yes Does the pump prime every 10 seconds and the warning beep sound every minute? no to both. I feel the need to clarify one point: i 'm ASSUMING the fifth is still engaged when i try to shift down to 4th. what exactly happens is that number 5 starts flashing as soon as i try to shift down (and even this is not exactly a flashing, but more precisely a sequence of appeare/disappear of the 5, because it is trying to shift down without success); it would go on this way undefinitely (i suppose), until i try to select neutral, then the "flashing" letter changes from 5 to N, the remark on the "flashing" still holding for N too. ah..i forgot to say that no errors are recorded in the selespeed ecu during all those stages. does this help? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 Ahhh, OK, this is not a selespeed problem...as such, but a gearbox internal fault, the way to go from hear on this is to drain the gearbox oil, remove the endplate from the gearbox (simply, jack up the left hand side, remve the small cover panel, remove the 6 bolts whih hold on the end plate (3x 13mm + 1x 10mm)), inspect the 5th gear synchro as far as possible for worn teeth, clean out any swarf from the area, run the calibration routine with the plate off and see if it passes whilst ensuring that no more debris is pushed out the selector holes. Then rebuild and top up the gearbox. If it fails then you may be in need of a replacement gearbox/clutch. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 Ahhh, OK, this is not a selespeed problem...as such, but a gearbox internal fault, the way to go from hear on this is to drain the gearbox oil, remove the endplate from the gearbox (simply, jack up the left hand side, remve the small cover panel, remove the 6 bolts whih hold on the end plate (3x 13mm + 1x 10mm)), inspect the 5th gear synchro as far as possible for worn teeth, clean out any swarf from the area, run the calibration routine with the plate off and see if it passes whilst ensuring that no more debris is pushed out the selector holes. Then rebuild and top up the gearbox. If it fails then you may be in need of a replacement gearbox/clutch. my mechanic did exactly the things you said. he said (as you suggested) that the fifth gear can be inspected without actually opening the gearbox, but only removing the endplate. hi did it, removed the swarf, he said there was a little piece of metal attached to the magnet. cleaned everything. the next day the calibration failed once, then ok, as usual. fifth still refusing to disengage. questions: 1) in order to do such an operation is it necessary to drain the gearbox oil? because he didn't ask me for oil. did he used the old one?? is he telling me lies? 2) he didn't do the calibration when gearbox was open (he is a mechanic, i'm providing the "electronic" skills...), but i seem to remember him saying that fifth engaged and disengaged manually well. is he telling me lies? 2.2) is it possible to inspect the fifth sincro with such a procedure? 2.3) let's suppose the fifth sincro was worn and he didn't notice it: it would be difficult to engage , not disengage it, right? i guess then that the worn sincro should be the fourth, am i right? 3) if it was the clutch, why would it fail only at fifth gear?? i'm really getting mad... PS anyway, i forgot to thank you for the support, much appreciated! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 1, Not really, but when you crack the end case off it will lose about 1/4 liter, I just drain it to know that most of the oil in the box afterwards is fresh, also if you drain it you can check the mag plg for a fur tree and this can aid in knowing how far you need to go. 2, You can force a gear to engage manually with the plate off quite easily no matter how damaged it is, you need to loo at the pointed teeth on the 5th gear cog for damage as this is what prevents engagement. 2.2, I can replace the 5th by just taking off this cover so inspecting it should prove no hassle. 2.3, Yes. 3, It's a wierd thing with these boxes, whereas most boxes struggle to engage 1st or R when the clutch is worn, these boxes tend to struggle in the higher gears due to debris build up in the box and the release bearings collapsing and rubbing the pressure plate fingers which then release the friction plate unevenly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 ok, very clear answers. tomorrow i will take it to an alfaromeo mechanic and ask him how much would it cost to pull the whole gearbox down, and then how much to fix it. PS i exploit this thread to ask you one curiosity: say we find out fifth gear is to be replaced; what would happen if i replaced it (its original ratio is 0.919:1) with a longer one, say the 6th gear of 166 2.0ts (ratio 0.861:1)? is the selespeed actuator going to complain? i would do it only to have a quieter car at highway speed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 ok, very clear answers. tomorrow i will take it to an alfaromeo mechanic and ask him how much would it cost to pull the whole gearbox down, and then how much to fix it. PS i exploit this thread to ask you one curiosity: say we find out fifth gear is to be replaced; what would happen if i replaced it (its original ratio is 0.919:1) with a longer one, say the 6th gear of 166 2.0ts (ratio 0.861:1)? is the selespeed actuator going to complain? i would do it only to have a quieter car at highway speed. Firstly it wouldn't fit as the 6th from a 166 is actually out of a V6 gearbox and not compatable. An alfa mechanic to pull strip and repair it, your easily looking at 4 figures. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 Firstly it wouldn't fit as the 6th from a 166 is actually out of a V6 gearbox and not compatable.damn...it would have been nice... An alfa mechanic to pull strip and repair it, your easily looking at 4 figures. i know i know but what can i do?? anyway: this morning i got the car from the old mechanic (he didn't ask for any money...there are still honest people around), and drove it back home using only 1-4 and R grars. i kept monitoring all the parameters for the whole trip (10 km). the pressure ranged from 50 to 65 bar...not good! the clutch value was 28.47 mm same problem with the 5th: i found out that, in order to get it back to work, i only need to run the "odd number gears selection solenoid valve" once, and it's back to non-flashing N. when near home i went for a test: rest -> 1st -> take off -> 2nd -> 3rd -> 4th -> 3rd -> 2nd -> rest(1st) in the meanwhile i was monitorning rpm and hydraulic pressure. see the attached picture of the test i can't understand how a broken accumulator could cause a high pressure: i expect a broken accumulator to induce a more frequent pump intervention, in order to keep the pressure above the minimum (45?). but if the pressure is already above it, who is telling the pump to prime? even a faulty pressure gauge cannot be the cause, think about it. it can be the relay, which is receiving a wrong pressure signal from the gauge! what do you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 pressure issue solved: in a ao forum thread a guy with my version of FES (1.6) reported a 52-64 bar range, exactly like mine. and a post says that the bug was well known, so it's only a scaling issue. my accumulator should be ok. smaky, i noticed you left a message on that thread!! the main problem is still there... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 sorry guys, it's starting looking like a monologue.... smaky, you definetly need a secretary...or an ad-hoc database!! wherever i look over the internet about selespeed problems, there is you giving right advice. but i'm starting to think you cannot remember all the issues.... look at this! the issue is very very similar to mine!! and the solution was a faulty gearbox!! smaky had the broken gearbox sent to him and inspected... i'm seriously thinking to take the car back to the previous mechanic and force him to take the gearbox out at my own risk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 I remember that one very well, it was actually a damaged casing (I still have it as a dummy box for cars in progress) which was the issue there and the only one I've ever seen like it and it's a very rare issue that only 20 cars should ever suffer from as that is all the castings that were done from that mould. I'm really hoping this isn't the problem with yours but you are getting to the point that the box may need to be opened. The version of FES your using definately needs updating then the pressures should fall back in. A failed accumulator doesn't dampen out the pumps pulses so shots up to about 75Bar which is when the pressure switch will catch up and shut off the pump, the pressure then drops off in a few seconds, the pump runs again and the cycle continues, the system then detects a fault and beeps, the code will read "Pump relay stuck", it's not the relay though, but if left like this for a while it too will also need replacing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 how much do you think they gonna ask me (Alfa romeo) for opening the box? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 how much do you think they gonna ask me (Alfa romeo) for opening the box? In the UK a box rebuild is in excess of £1500 depending on the repairs needed at the dealers I frequently have been able to cut that in half and include a replacement clutch, which is extra at the stealers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 oh my lord....i will ask before..i suspect i will be back to my old mechanic soon. i'll let you know as soon as i know something...at this stage i'm pretty sure it's something related to the gearbox. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sphinx 7 Report post Posted October 22, 2011 Which country are you in? It might be cheaper to ship the car to Alex and get it back than have it done locally... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarryP156 7 Report post Posted October 23, 2011 Or ship alex over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter2 1 Report post Posted October 23, 2011 italy... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
