Selespeed skipping 4th

[AFLA 4]

Hi Smaky,

 

I have another issue with me Bella...

 

Skips 4th going from 3rd to 5th. Both manual and city modes. Now this is almost every time unless going very gently. Warm and cold. 2-3 sec delay when occurs on the skip.

 

No errors. Pumps primes 10 secs on door open. No flashing gears. Pressure between 44 and 55 Bar. Switches on every second shift. Is demonstrated on engine off and MAR as well consistently.

 

Clutch length is 28.1 mm. Done enablement (with self learn at 3000 rpm) and recalibration. More than once. Sele oil is fine and topped up. Cleaned main connector. Battery fine (less than 8 months ago). Did NOT do clutch bleed. No change.

 

My Indy says this is the Selector potentiometer that I can replace with used or new from eBay. He does not want to move and clean it before i get another as it might crumble and would not be able to drive at all. However I have also heard this might be down to "Swarf in the gearbox" that needs cleaning.

 

Can this be down to faulty accumulator or worn clutch or Swarf and not the potentiometer? I heard the potentiometer is rather expensive and I cannot find the part no. to look it up eBay...

 

 

Thanks again for your valuable help!

 

 

Afla

[Smaky 73]

Jack up the L/H side of the car, remove the wheel and dirt guard, then remove the end plate from the gearboxand remove any swarf that may be jamming the selector rod. Rebuild using a bead of sealant on the plate and top up the gearbox oil.

 

 

If that doesn't help then your probably going to have to remove and open up the gearbox/replace the gearbox.

[AFLA 4]

Guess I was to quick to find and order the sensor...

 

Which oil is recommended and where do I top the gearbox? How much should go in and how can I verify level?

[Smaky 73]

Guess I was to quick to find and order the sensor...

 

Which oil is recommended and where do I top the gearbox? How much should go in and how can I verify level?

 

75/90 GL5 oil is recommended and there is a 12mm allen plug on the front of the gearbox next to the brass speed sensor and it's fill to spill (approx 2 litres).

[AFLA 4]

Hi Smaky,

 

I know it's been a whole - but only this month was I able to get it to my mechanic for sorting out.

 

He had changed the potentiometer, replaced solenoid valves, and opened up the gear box to look for swarf. Alas, the problem persists. He thinks the only way forward is to replace the actuator for a used unit.

 

How can it be that this problem cannot be traced? Can there be other elements that might be damaged along the path battery/relay/pump/accumulator/valves/selector/mesh that we are overlooking?

 

Can it be the "finger retaining pinch bolt" or the "gear engagement sensor"?

 

I can also add that above 5500 RPM she shifts much better into 4th. As if the problem is only at low/medium revs.

 

Thanks in advance! I am very puzzled but do not want to give up on locating the root cause for this although my faithful Indy is about to.

 

Afla

[Smaky 73]

I doubt very much that this is an actuator issue, I'd say these symptoms point more towards an internal issue in the gearbox.

[AFLA 4]

Smaky, she is still at it...

 

The gearbox is clean without any Swarf or the like.

 

It now also misses 3rd every now and then! But- 4th seems better - especially when driven with a sure foot on the gas pedal.

 

Yesterday, I tried her again at MAR and noticed one more peculiarity: after going up 1,2,3 then skipping 4th and going back to 3rd from 5th (through 4th), I tried over and over to engage 4th - and she did this with no problem. Over and over again (ie: 3,4,3,4,3,4,...). I also noticed this on open road while driving. This happens before the pump finishes cycling (quick succession of gears) and also after (slow/paused succession).

 

Can the engagement and selection values (mm) of the various gears and the current measurements provide more info to find the root cause?

 

I don't want to throw lots of money into her without knowing what it is. Luckily, my mechanic charged me only for Tutela and not for labor or parts till now as problem was not fixed.

 

Please help.

 

Thanks,

 

Afla

[Smaky 73]

Smaky, she is still at it...

 

The gearbox is clean without any Swarf or the like.

 

It now also misses 3rd every now and then! But- 4th seems better - especially when driven with a sure foot on the gas pedal.

 

Yesterday, I tried her again at MAR and noticed one more peculiarity: after going up 1,2,3 then skipping 4th and going back to 3rd from 5th (through 4th), I tried over and over to engage 4th - and she did this with no problem. Over and over again (ie: 3,4,3,4,3,4,...). I also noticed this on open road while driving. This happens before the pump finishes cycling (quick succession of gears) and also after (slow/paused succession).

 

Can the engagement and selection values (mm) of the various gears and the current measurements provide more info to find the root cause?

 

I don't want to throw lots of money into her without knowing what it is. Luckily, my mechanic charged me only for Tutela and not for labor or parts till now as problem was not fixed.

 

Please help.

 

Thanks,

 

Afla

 

If you leave the car sat with the key at MAR how often does the pump prime?

 

I do think though that this is definately going to be open heart surgery on the gearbox to sort, not iffcult for me as I do these all the time and have a massive box of spares for them, but the costly choice is to replace the clutch or not while it's off, that's simply £160 for the kit and oil and a bit for labour to get the box off and rebuild... about 6-8 hours for me depending on the issues within.

[AFLA 4]

Hi Smaky!

 

I wish I could hand her over to you - but I am a few thousand miles away (Israel)...

 

Any way - as I have at least a month before I can surrender her to my Indy (cashflow), I am trying to see if and what I can diagnose and maybe fix alone. So this evening I got the full license for FES in order to properly take care of her.

 

Just to be on the safe side I performed a bleed+calibration. Didn't help - although I think the rod is too far (it fluctuates below 28.5 but every now and then I get a reading it is 28.7 and upwards (will adjust Friday when I have time to mess around).

 

The pump primes for around 3 seconds following switch to MAR. On door open (morning) it primes for between 9 and 11 seconds.

 

When I checked the Selection position, I found two different values:

 

1) After going from 2nd to 3rd, the Selection Position when in 3rd was ~17.185 mm.

2) After going from 4th to 3rd, the Selection Position when in 3rd was ~17.850 mm.

 

This was rather consistent.

 

Does this have anything to say on the fault root cause? Does this mean this is a gearbox issue for sure?

 

After I played a bit with FES, I noticed that if I connect to the Selespeed ECU while selecting the 147 CF208F, I got no ISO codes (as I got with connecting to the 156 Selespeed one - which is what I have). I further checked the options available and found I can execute a diagnosis routine called "Engagement lever pin securing screw diagnosis" (which is not found in the 156 Selespeed menu).

 

I got the error 0f as result of this diagnostic routine.

 

Does this assist in diagnosing? Do I have the infamous loose finger bolt issue?

 

Thanks you!

 

Tuval

[Smaky 73]

Do I have the infamous loose finger bolt issue?

 

 

I doubt it,

 

The prime times sound right but you also need to watch the Hydraulic pressure, it shoud rise to about 55Bar and then 10 - 15 minutes later or more depending on the seals it will drop to 44Bar at which point the pum will prime up to 55Bar again, if it goes higher then you have an accumulator fault which cancause this stuff, but unfortunately so can the more likely broken input loop problem which shows up as a pinch bolt problem on FES, but that could also just be dodgy sensors.

[AFLA 4]

I monitored the pump graph more than once and it looks OK - down to just a bit lower than 45 then re-priming up to 55. Slow to lose pressure - around 12 minutes.

 

I will monitor again just to make sure...

 

I think I will ask my indy to pry open the box end plate and replace the bolt just in case - while I'm there - as I really want to get to the bottom of this!

 

Do the different position measurements for selection suggest anything?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tuval

[Smaky 73]

I monitored the pump graph more than once and it looks OK - down to just a bit lower than 45 then re-priming up to 55. Slow to lose pressure - around 12 minutes.

 

I will monitor again just to make sure...

 

I think I will ask my indy to pry open the box end plate and replace the bolt just in case - while I'm there - as I really want to get to the bottom of this!

 

Do the different position measurements for selection suggest anything?

 

 

Thanks,

 

Tuval

 

I only mentioned the pressure so that you knew what it should be. The Finger bolt is in the ACTUATOR, not the gearbox, you need to lower the gearbox down on the 17mm bolt in the mountso that you can get access to the 8mm allen grub screw on the side of the actuator through the wheel arch, then remove the L/H 5mm allen bolt which holds the actuator down the gearbox, THEN using a long 6mm allen bit you can get into the finger bolt from the side.

[AFLA 4]

well, more on this:

 

I am waiting on my Indy to get a replacement actuator for now. to see if this fixes things.

 

But have noticed yesterday and confirmed today with FES that the pump primes very frequently when the engine is on.

 

When the key is at MAR, the priming is slow and is more than 5 minutes.

 

When the engine is on the pump primes every 25 seconds (this morning, see FES graph).

 

Is the reason behind this the failing actuator? I doubt this is the accumulator, as it behaves fine when engine off.

 

Thanks,

 

Tuval

[Smaky 73]

That would be a leaking seal within the actuator, as when the engine is running and the car is in neutral I would think it'd be the clutch rod seal, this could be proven by removing the dust cover from the rod to see if it's wet, if not then it may just be the clutch solenoid seals need replacing a total of 30 minutes work and £2 in parts. If the pressure drop would have been quicker then I'd have definately gone for an accumulator, but this is in no way a reason to replace the whole actuator.

[AFLA 4]

Hi Smaky!

 

So the problem is either gone or fixed!

 

This is the story:

 

 

Took her for a routine service oil and filters. As previously I discussed the pinch bolt theorem with my Indy, he agrees finally to inspect it.

 

Up goes the Alfa, down goes the gearbox and the bolt is tighter than anything I have seen. However, the long pin/screw that goes from the robot to the box was removed in the process. Then, reinserted. As nothing was discovered, up the box goes back and I am left in same state of puzzlement and bruised ego as I has been last few months.

 

During this time, Mishka, the 2nd mechanic on deck, decided to clean the underside of the engine and box with steaming hot water jet.

 

Needless to say, when I wanted to take her out, reverse would not engage.

 

Air dried in pressure the connector + contact cleaner but nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

 

Then, we hooked up and did a relearn.

 

Now - we have done EOL countless times before. But this time - IT WORKED!!!

 

I now get 1-2-3-4-5 (and R of course) without any glitch, hiccup or burp from the sele! And I am writing this 3 days after, as I am waiting in line for the MOT.

 

I don't know what cured it and I sure hope it will not come back.

 

But it's gone. Goooooooone!!!!!

 

 

Edited July 13, 2012 by AFLA

[Smaky 73]

Very odd, but like I said, it didn't need an actuator, the problem though I think will return, just a matter of when, that graph still worries me.

[AFLA 4]

I will get a new reading soon. The gear changes are responsive and smooth as silk now.

 

 

[AFLA 4]

Few weeks later, still smooth like butter. Touch wood.

 

And the readings look ok and pump behaves nicely priming when it should.

Edited August 1, 2012 by AFLA

[Smaky 73]

Well, that seems to be sorted then,.