gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Hi all, hoping someone can give me some advice. I have a 147 GTA sele, 126000 km's, the clutch was replaced at 108000, and then the problems started, 1st issues was a slight judder when taking off in first, then also an issue where at high rpms in 1st & 2nd gear ie over 4500, it would take 1-2 seconds after I selected upshift to change to the next gear, which revved the engine an additional 500-800 rpm until the clutch engaged. I changed the entire actuator on advice from a dealer it seemed ok, for 3-4 weeks, and the initial judder symptom came back from low speed take off in first, and reverse gear. The slave Clutch cylinder (with position sensor) was then replaced for a new one, system recalibrated, and then all was fine for 2-3 weeks, then the original symptoms started again (albeit with much reduced frequency), then I took it to another specialist who thought the clutch might have been binding, and replaced the clutch again, and found in inadequate greasing on the thrust bearing, selector rod and forks, all seemed well, till another 2-3 weeks and it played up again. Recently, I had found that bleeding the fluid from the nipple on top of the slave cylinder seems to return everything to smooth operation for 5-10 days then the symptoms re-occur, I am considering replacing the braided hydraulic hoses from the actuator to the slave cylinder and the gearbox linkage actuator as well. I have also just replaced the EV0, clutch electrovalve, on the new actuator and everything was great until a few days ago, and the original symptoms have returned. Not sure where else to check and look, all electrical, looms, voltages, fuses etc have been checked thoroughly, along with the pump high pressure hoses etc, using ALFA Examiner and Multi ECU Scan, seems to be ok for 2-3 weeks after a calibration before it seems to "forget" and requires recalibration, it ran flawlessly for 8 years prior to the first clutch change. I noticed for the first time today the asr light flashed brielfy when I took off and the shudder occurred, I have turned off the ASR via the switch on the centre console to see if this makes a difference. Any advice or anything further that can be checked would be great. Edited June 27, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted June 27, 2014 hI AND WELCOME TO ad. So a 147 GTA Sele, very rare, there's only 4 on the road here and needless to say I have worked on them all so here goes. Judder on take up is caused by 1 or more of 7 things, faulty accumulator, worn out clutch, leaking clutch rod seals, battery problems, dirty clutch position sensor or faulty/dirty speed sensors (clutch or crank) or Clutch engagement position NOT learnt. I suspect that the last 3 on that list are the most likely, I'd first do the self learn procedure for the clutch - Find a long clear quiet road - stop engine - start engine - select 2nd gear - put the gas pedal to the floor and accelerate to 4000 rpm - bring the car to a halt and switch off the engine, wait 30 seconds and start the engine - drive off as normal and see if the clutch has smoothed out. Next option - Clutch speed sensor Remove the sensor (55212289) from the front of the gearbox and check for swarf build up on the end of it, it's magnetic and should be cleaned off if there is any. Refit the sensor, carry out the clutch learn (above) and then see how it goes. Finally on the probabilities - Battery If the battery is still the original then it has done well, but have it tested and personally if it was over 5 years old I'd replace it, the Selespeed ECU is very sensitive to power spikes and relies on signals at mV level to control solenoids and sensors, and fluctuations can make things very jerky until things warm up. All the other things in the list I think you've covered by having the clutch replaced TWICE and the actuator (I've yet to see a faulty GTA one), I'm not listing the pmp as unless the system isn't building pressure up then it can't be that. Hope that gives you a start as it seems you're being fobbed off by the untrained garages there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Thanks Smaky, also the clutch speed sensor was removed cleaned and inspected, a new battery was installed around 6 months ago, pump pressure as per Multi ecu scan is steady at 48-50 bar at all times, the clutch engagement routine has been carried out several times, the end result is it drives perfectly and VERY smoothly ie gear changes etc, for 2-3 weeks after each activity, then the original symptom comes back, slight shudder on acceleration from standing stop, and this happens perhaps once every 2-3 days, then once a day, then several times a day, cannot correlate it to any particular time or instance ie engine hot, cold, etc, just today for the first time ever as i accelerated slowly from a standing start the ASR (yellow triangle symbol with an "A" flashed briefly, so I thought, that maybe pressing the ASR off button might help, and it has not re-occurred in heavy stop start traffic again, so I was wondering if it was possible the ABS/Speed sensors were flagging intermittent false signals, that were clamping the brakes a little ie dragging causing the shudder at very low speeed from take off. Given that every other component has been replaced in some cases more than once. Edited June 27, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted June 27, 2014 It's possible that a wheel speed sensor or wheel bearing may be the route of this, but before going the whole route of replacement just disconnect all the connectors and check them for corrosion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 27, 2014 (edited) Thanks again, will, do, I understand the wheel speed sensor, but what would a wheel bearing have an impact on ? Just confirming, i can do a clutch calibration without using MES or examiner, simply by following you instructions above re standing start in 2nd, go to 40000 rpm, then halt and switch off for 30 seconds, then restart ? and should it be done when the engine oil temp is at around 2 bars ? Also re the connection, do you mean the 2 plugs (one for left front and one for right front connection plug) located up near the top of the front suspension struts ? it just seems to be great for 2-3 weeks before recurrence quite suddenyl and unexpectedley. she is in excellent condition, over serviced, and driven with a lot of mechanicl sympathy as a daily driver, have had her since brand new for 9 years, close to 4 times longer than any other car, and I am devastated everytime i spend a ot of money on her to find the underlying fault returns . . And thank you for the welcome, I welcomed you when you joined our ausalfa.com forum earlier this month, I am a mod on ausalfa.com Edited June 27, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted June 28, 2014 The wheel sensors take a pick up off the wheel bearings, so a damaged bearing can give a false signal, but that wold be constant and a calibration has nothing to do with the ABS side of things. Disconnect, yes, those 2, 2 more in the boot, the round one behind the intake manifold, the 2 to the ECU and the main plug on the ABS ECU. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 28, 2014 Hi smaky did all that. I graphed the abs inputs on the wheel sensors using mes. And noticed at very low speed a minor difference between the front left and right speed inputs. So will drive it a bit more and see how it behaves. When I did start it up the first time I did get flashing mcsf errors which cleared and did not persist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted June 28, 2014 how does the tyre wear compare between the front wheels? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 29, 2014 (edited) the wear seems even, I have not picked any noticeable uneven wear, they are up for replacement shortly, but my car has all new suspension and coilvers (bilstein B16's - very firm at the back), ie upper and lower arms, steering ends, drop links, etc and on the back new trailing arms, and transverse arms, droplinks, and a whiteline rear arb set at the middle adjustment. all items fitted by alfa indie specialists here, and the alignment and cnr weighting done by a specialist suspension shop. drives very well, and the grip much improved Edited June 29, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) it all seemed very nice and smooth, less than 24 hrs later the symptom has re-occurred, it is almost like a fresh calibration sorts it for a short period of time, and then it learn's or self calibrates itself incorrectly, any more thoughts Smaky, it is driving me nuts. I am getting a specialist to check out the wheel speed sensors. Is there anything else that could be contributing to this issue re input sensors that govern clutch engagement etc ? The brake light switch was changed 2 yrs ago and multi Ecu scan says it is on and off ok but could the sensitivity be an issue ? Does it need / require adjusting ? Follow up all items checked and found working fine, around the time this started a new alternator was fitted by the dealer not sure if this could be an issue the original dealer has asked me To return and they will resolve it. The services after mentioned that he had seen sometimes a new alternator giving a bad waveform output that has upset some of the ecu's so that willbe another avenue of investigation and diagnosis. Edited July 2, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 2, 2014 the wear seems even, I have not picked any noticeable uneven wear, they are up for replacement shortly, but my car has all new suspension and coilvers (bilstein B16's - very firm at the back), ie upper and lower arms, steering ends, drop links, etc and on the back new trailing arms, and transverse arms, droplinks, and a whiteline rear arb set at the middle adjustment. all items fitted by alfa indie specialists here, and the alignment and cnr weighting done by a specialist suspension shop. drives very well, and the grip much improved Did they set the tracking with a full tank of fuel and 200Kg evenly around the 4 main seats?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 2, 2014 Follow up all items checked and found working fine, around the time this started a new alternator was fitted by the dealer not sure if this could be an issue the original dealer has asked me To return and they will resolve it. The services after mentioned that he had seen sometimes a new alternator giving a bad waveform output that has upset some of the ecu's so that willbe another avenue of investigation and diagnosis. OK, this is the most likely avenue, like a battery the alternator can cause mystery signals that even Scooby and the gang can't solve, hopefuly a BOSDH/Magnetti one was fitted as any other make will cause havoc with the car. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 2, 2014 Yes it was a genuine one from an Alfa dealer and from memory it was a Bosch. The service manager said they have had one or two rare issues before re ecu's that coincided with a new alternator being fitted. So they may replace this as a process of elimination. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 5, 2014 Keep us informed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 5, 2014 (edited) car goes in tomorrow for an extended trial/diagnosis/repair etc, the service mgr has committed to me it will not be returned until it is finally resolved, will update as soon as they have found something, it seems every time they replace the clutch valve it is great for 2-3 weeks then it re-occurs, could it be a bad batch of clutch valves ? (currently on its 3rd one) Also the clutch valve replacement looks a little different to the original one, the new one has a mesh type collar down near the body of the valve, whereas the original one had a hole drilled through it. Alfa/Fiat says the EV0 is different between the CFC208F and the CFC218F. But part no'shave been superseded etc between the original etc. What is your understanding of this Smaky ? Edited July 5, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 5, 2014 The EV0 is the same on both and the new valve wont be the problem. I think this is going to be down to the alternator they've fitted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 6, 2014 (edited) Just so I can understand how can a new/faulty alternator cause the shuddering or slow upshift in a selespeed ? Edited July 6, 2014 by gbernard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Frequency errors in the voltage signal can spike the ECUs and cause false signals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 11, 2014 Alternator has been tested by anautoelec with a cro and nothing out of the ordinary ie no dirty signal etc has been found. Back to square one at the dealer. The shuddering fault has started up again ( it was not happening for the last week) so the diagnostic process starts again. :-(. Any other areas to investigate you can suggest smaky ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 Think I'm going to be heading to Aus for a bit... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 great place for a holiday, been before ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 12, 2014 yes, quite a few years back now. I think now though it may be worth going through all the connectors, fuses and relays, just disconnecting and reseat78 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 did the whole continuity check on all the wiring, checked and reseated the fuses and relays, given that it always seems fine for 1-2 weeks after a delete of statistical data and replaced clutch & replaced actuator procedure, has what has got everyone stumped, it almost seems as it learns it is learning something incorrectly, or biassed, so as soon as we delete the previois data, it seems fine for a short period . . .then the problem re-occurs, with increasing frequency and amplitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smaky 73 Report post Posted July 13, 2014 Clean the earth strap connections to the gearbox, body and battery. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gbernard 0 Report post Posted July 14, 2014 What other sensors, contribute to the learning/calibration of the Sele ECU ? on the CFC218F GTA Sele ? I know of the following ones, - Clutch position on the slave cylinder - Wheel speed sensor via ABS/VDC unit - gearbox input shaft speed sensor what other ones are there ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites