Apparently My Gearbox Is Knackered..... 2Nd Opinions Please?

[TimboBro 0]

Hi everyone, came here for the legendary Smaky, but after a look around, this place is rocking with knowledge!

 

Had a bad run with my temperamental lovely bella, getting frustrating, but the thought of driving something boring is also depressing, not sure what's worse!

 

History and possible clues.....

 

Alfa 147 2002 Selespeed with 130000kms on the clock. Actuator replaced 2007, Clutch in 2009, Battery in 2010.

Regular servicing since then with all the usuals, plus got a crank sensor replaced a few months ago, and has been driving near perfectly for past month after crank sensor fix.

Occasional but very minor judder/jerking when pulling away in 1st when cold.

I've had my Alfadiag (and their examiner) on there, no fault codes anywhere.

The EOL calibration (alfadiag) seems to complete without any errors, all clicks and clunks you'd expect. But doesn't fix the issue.

Battery is 12.1V when key is on MAR (bit low? I have an ipod which I think stays on/charges all the time, so could be draining the battery (should get a charger) .

Pressure is 45-55, pump is working normally and the mechanic says the actuator seems to be doing it's job normally, i.e trying to change the gears. SS fluid normal.

 

Issue started a week or two ago, I lost 1st and 3rd. Seemed to sort itself out while driving/restarting.

Couple of days later, wouldn't start, N was flashing. No gears selectable. Unplugged battery, did misc Alfadiag stuff, EOL, checked sensor readings, etc, suddenly it would start and everything normal.

Yesterday while driving on motorway, suddenly lost 3rd, followed by 1st and 5th. Stopped for an hour to do some work, started OK, but only 2nd or 4th were selectable, got to my next job 30km's later, after restarting, all gears back again.

This morning, N flashing, car won't start, still no error codes anywhere. Unplugged -ve battery terminals (and even +ve this time too), jiggled all main loom wiring and actuator connectors, did Alfadiag stuff. Somehow, random or not, it started and reluctantly went into 1st and stayed there for the drive to the mechanics!

(Starts in N flashing, change to 1st might work, might not, if it does work, it won't go back to N, If I try to go to R from 1st, it may go back to N, maybe not, but not into R, and 2,3,4,5 not happening. It is clunking and clicking and trying to change, but not succeeding.

 

OK sorry for the essay, but figure the history may help a bit..... Or it may be simple, and the mechanic is right.......

 

He says he's fixed it for now (didn't say how - will ask tmrw), but it's almost certainly temporary, and he ideally needs to take out the gearbox and examine it for problems and possibly replace some parts inside. He says I can't really get a new gearbox, as not the done thing, and even if I did, horribly expensive (4K+ AU). He's quoting me $1600+AU (20 hours - 1000 pounds) for labour to do this kind of job, but doesn't know any more until he sees inside the gearbox. I think he's a very decent mechanic when it comes to alfa nuts and bolts, but I have some doubts on handling of the electronics and touchy sensor/wiring niggles that are so often discussed around here. May find a second opinion, but no other Alfa mechanics within 50kms!

 

What does everyone think please??

 

Cheers

Tim

 

 

P.S And hoping you guys don't mind if I post this in other forums as well as here, let me know if that's not cool?

Edited December 11, 2012 by TimboBro

[Bigdar 62]

in my opinion Timbo, you need Smaky

but you knew that anyway, given time im sure he'll have some advice for you ( hes not on here daily, but he does reply )

make yourself at home, maybe you could post in the newby section and tell us a bit about yourself

[Smaky 73]

I've read the essay and it's pretty conclusive, I'd first sack your mechanic, it takes me 4-5 hours to replace a gearbox on a sele on axle stands with hand tools, so a "professional mechanic" (pmsl) with power tools and ramps should be looking at 3 tops (I know as that's been my average in the shed),

 

but to the issue, I notice that there is no mention of a clutch rod length, which funnily enough is where I'd start, if the rod isn't set and LOCKED to the right position (28 - 28.5mm) then the selections will be as random as your experiencing,

 

if all is OK there then I'd suspect the pump, I know you say pressure is fine at 45 to 55 Bar, but 10 years is a long time for the motors brushes and as they generally wear out around the 80K - 100K mile point then it may be the pump labouring to make pressure between selections and if it's not up in time the car will dump to N for safety,

 

the only other thing that I've seen cause this only really happens on pre 2000 156 seles and that is the loop breaking off the selector inside the centre casing, but as all 147s where built with the modified box then this shouldn't be an issue,

 

I am wondering though if wen the clutch was replaced, was it done as a full kit or just a particular piece? As if the release plate or release bearing have worn then this can also cause all of this, but I think you'll have it sorted after a clutch rod set up and calibration.

[TimboBro 0]

Thanks Smaky, that's great info. The clutch rod length when I put it on Alfadiag was 28.83, so def a bit high. Another telling story was that when I mentioned this fact to the mechanic, he basically ignored the comment and made out it was irrelevant. It's going to be awkward going to another mechanic, they're all a bit of a closed circle here in Sydney it seems, but I at least need to get another quote and chat with someone different.

 

So when you say '4-5 hours to replace a gearbox'..... Are gearboxes commonly available over there as new or secondhand parts? He gave me the impression it was a matter of looking inside the gearbox and checking for anything worn, foreign items etc etc and replacing those parts, certainly not the entire unit.

 

How easy is it to adjust the clutch rod length and calibrate it? I'm a bit of a noob, but is it something I can take back to them (or someone else) and have it done as a quick and easy job?)

 

Much appreciate the input!

Cheers

Tim

[Smaky 73]

4-5 hours is a straight swap, if I was opening one up to inspect it aswell then you could add 1.5 hours on that (mainly for cleaning and resealing), over here boxes are becoming harder to find in good condition but I have loads of bits and pieces lying around and if I don't have it then it's no more than 2 days for the dealer to get it in.

 

The rod requires a laptop to setup correctly, but only takes 5 minutes to do, effectively, the longer the rod is to start with, then the less the atuator will push on the clutch to release it, so it's just like not pressing the clutch pedal right down on a normal manual gear change, which in the end will result in worn down synchros and gears, not really the cars fault, but half srsed servicing of the vehicles in he past by inexperienced or untrained mechanics.

[TimboBro 0]

Hey all,

 

bit of a thread bump, but I'm as guilty as so many others of not following up what happened in the end... might help someone. And besides I'm here again because of a slightly similar issue, so might pose another question if needed.

 

So, I ended up adjusting the clutch rod length back to 18.1 or so, taking out, cleaning the oil and crap off the SS relay (the little black square thing above the SS system), and cable tying the relay in place so it's solidly inserted (which it wasn't before). Also pulled open the wiring loom connector, and gave it a good clean with contact cleaner. Ran EOL adjustment and clutch calibration.

 

VOILA! Two years of perfect Selespeed operation! Well 18 months, did the same thing 6 months ago, and it's been sorted ever since.

 

Until yesterday.... SS suddenly couldn't find 1 or 3, but did work in 2 or 4, albeit with some trouble. Managed to limp home, and had a look today. Clutch actuator position is 18.38, so suspect that's not the issue (although it may prefer 18.1 ?). When I started this morning, it was all working just fine. Did a EOL calibration which passed. Sat looking at the laptop for a few minutes, then suddenly noticed it had changed to 4, and wasn't responding to any commands. Hmm, seems a bit more electronic than mechanical?

 

Going to clean the loom again and clean and reseat the relay as well.

 

Suspect I also need to check the sensors, but not sure how to get at them / get them out / what to check. Can anyone help??

 

If I can avoid going to the mechanic, I'll be very happy, plus bonus points from the wife!

 

Cheers

Tim

Edited December 12, 2014 by TimboBro

[TimboBro 0]

Update....

 

Going to clean the loom again and clean and reseat the relay as well.

 

Fixed. Relay had oil all over it again. So far, all working fine!

[Smaky 73]

So, as I said to start, it's not the gearbox but the way it's been setup. I'm just concerned that you're saying 18mm when it should be 28mm.

[peter2 1]

hi, isn't the 18mmm the reading with engine running?

 

anyway, smaky, you highlighted LOCKED previously: based on the picture attached which is the locking bolt and which the regulation one?

 

[Smaky 73]

As there is only 1 nut in that picture then there can only be one choice as to which is the locking nut. BUt I can see straight away that the rod in the picture is adjusted too short.

[peter2 1]

so, since i just have had it adjusted, should i be worried by the fact that my mechanic adjusted it without loosening the nut, and acting on the bolt only???

he moved it from 29.2 to 28.1 mm (real time FES reading), and, after the calibration procedure, the reading dropped to 27.8.

[Smaky 73]

He may have bent the roll pin that guides the pistons movement.

 

[peter2 1]

may I ask you to circle the roll pin in the picture so that I can inspect it myself?

thanks a lot!

 

PS are we littering the original topic?

[Smaky 73]

You cant see it as it's inside the clutch rod housing.

[TiggerK 0]

Hi again everyone, I thought that since my car history is listed in this thread, I may as well continue the thread instead of start a new one, considering it's no doubt related.

 

So all has been going pretty well with my beloved 147, although it's defintely juddering quite a bit if I don't gived it enough revs when starting off in 1st, almost like an L plater learning a manual gearbox! Bit more boot fixes that though, but concerned the clutch may need sorting? Or perhaps my clutch calibration reoutine was done poorly (the whole start in 2nd, foot flat up to 3000RPM, let it off and coast to a stop thing - tips?)

 

But the main issue now is it regularly refuses to go into R, 2 or to a lesser extent, 4. It will sometimes find those gears, either going up or down, but getting worse each day. I unplugged the battery for a bit and it seemed OK for an hour's driving, but issue returned. Could be more when car is warm, not certain. Drives happily in 1, 3 and 5. No fault codes showing, cluch rod position is a touch high at 28.55. New battery, SS fluid is OK, pressure normal, pump runs etc.

 

I know/think there is an EV2 valve that relates to R, 2 and 4 gears, could that be an issue perhaps? Last time my problems were 1 and 3, now it's the other way around! Funny. I'll do my usual fix this afternoon of readjusting rod down to 28.1, cleaning loom and relay, EOL calibration and see how it goes.... Given the fact that sometimes it will drive for a while with no issues, again it feels more like funky Alfa electrics and sensors than physical gearboxy stuff?

 

Would like to look at cleaning the contacts on the SS system as well, but no idea how they disconnect and what ones are more important than others, so any advice there would be appreciated....

 

Cheers

Tim

Edited October 10, 2015 by TiggerK

[Smaky 73]

The sensor and solenoid wiring is all as important as each other and they are all simple clips on the plugs to release them except the main 20 pin plug which has a slide on it that locks it closed.

 

 

Your fault though sounds like an insertion sensor failure. That is the rearmost one of the BLACK ones on TOP of the actuator, swap it with the other one on top of the actuator (clutch position sensor) and see if it's all good then. If it is then you may need to reset the clutch rod length and run the EOL, it may even smooth out the 1st gear starts but that may be hoping too much.

[TiggerK 0]

Thanks Smaky, really appreciate the guru advice. No progress yet (chaos here in the middle of moving house) and car has been fine so far, but will have a look at all that next week.

 

Cheers

Tim

[TiggerK 0]

Back in business with the new house (well sort of, work in progress). The Alfa news is that it continued to play up intermittently during the house move and one day it totally refused to go into R. Going into 1 was no problem (but 2 was also no go), but I was at the end of the driveway and had no option but to go backwards!! Disconnected the battery etc, to no avail. Plugged into AlfaDiag and did the EOL calibration, the routine succeeded with no errors, but still no R. It would make all the clunking noises, but just not engage R. No fault codes. Arrgghhh. So having few options other than a tow, I did the EOL again. For goodness knows why, it worked, and has been changing into R, 2 and 4 perfectly for 2 weeks. Go figure, any theories people, esp the legend Smaky?

 

It's going in for a much needed service on Monday - timing belt, bubbling radiator hose, oil/water filters etc. Also found a new steering wheel with new paddles at a wreckers that I'm hoping to score!

 

So... few questions please?? In approx order of importance.

 

As Smaky mentioned, as a precaution against future dramas (as per above), should I ask them to replace the Gear Insertion Sensor on the Selespeed system? Working OK for now, but going into R, 2 and 4 have been regular offenders!!

 

It sounds like a diesel on startup. Should I ask them to change the variator while the timing belt is being done?

 

How bad (or $$) does it get if I leave the brakes too long before getting them sorted? She brakes just fine (but quite a judder on a rare emergency braking scenario), but wary that I've never really spent anything brakewise for 7 years and the tyre place warned me it was heading rapidly towards the 'discs'. Mechanic will check, and no doubt say do them, so prob a silly question....??

 

Is it just me or is the silver bit on the glovebox a complete nightmare to re-screw in? Any tips?

 

Detailing - I'd love to make my bella more pretty again. I have some touch up paint, but the surface is in Serious Need of a Major buff on the roof, and the side panels have a few fairly deep and quite a few minor scratches. Should I get her a proper buff, then look at touching up with the paint, or do in the opposite order or what?? I don't need perfection, it's a 2002 car, but would like her to look a bit better without a whole new paint job.

 

And lastly, does anyone remember where a fix was mentioned or know how to improve the look of the window controls and interior door handle plastic bits which are looking really manky and sticky. I think I saw a post somewhere about using Napi-San or something perhaps?

 

Cheers everyone!

Tim

Edited October 29, 2015 by TiggerK

[Smaky 73]

OK, this now sounds like the gearbox itself could be the issue, but I don't know if you've checked the clutch rod length yet? If you have and it is within 28 - 28.5mm then I think either the clutch is worn out or the gearbox has an internal issue like the selector support bracket is broken.

[TiggerK 0]

I checked it a few weeks ago and it was 28.4, so could be a touch lower, but not too bad. Still working just fine by the way.

 

I can't understand how a possible mechanical issue with the clutch or gearbox suddenly disappears for weeks/months? Does that not more likely point to sensors/electronic glitches? Or does the EOL calibration compensate for the mechanical faults somehow?

 

Would love some answers to my other questions guys, no matter how brief!

 

Cheers

Tim

 

P.S Had the clutch changed about 50K miles ago... but I do a lot of stop start city driving, sometimes in traffic jams so the gearbox and clutch do get a workout....

Edited November 1, 2015 by TiggerK

[Smaky 73]

The EOL will compensate for wear and tear, but not for mechanical faults, although if say the front bearing has collapsed, if the shaft is still central enough then an EOL will pass as the selectors will still engage correctly,

 

Normally problems that go away for months are down to heat soak, during the winter things appear fine then the warm weather comes and the problems start, this IS normally down to a sensor or solenoid and those 20 or so degrees do make the difference.