Selespeed Randomly Refusing To Start Or Select Gears

[leongsoon 8]

Gonna need some advice again haha! Last Tuesday, my 156 Selespeed started normally, but while I was sitting in the car in N, the N suddenly flashed and changed to 3. I played with the gear selector a bit and finally the car lost all gears. The first thing I did was clean all the relays in front of the battery and gave the Selespeed connector beside the battery a quick blow, but the car will either not crank at all. Or when it does crank and start, gears cannot be selected. I noticed that in this first incident the Selespeed pump was not running. In the end I managed to limp home in 1st when it'll finally engage only that gear. Got home, cleaned the relays with contact cleaner and the car was working perfectly again, back then I suspected the culprit was the big black relay in front of the battery. Plugged in MES and got this:

 

P1758 Clutch Solenoid valve current No signal Stored

P1743 Clutch Sensor Signal High Fatal

P1769 Pump driving relay stuck Invalid signal Stored

P1756 Odd numbered gear engagement No signal Stored

 

For the next 10 days the car worked perfectly fine, until today; I was reversing when the car suddenly went into 2nd gear (limp mode I assume). The symptoms are exactly the same as the last time, so back home I limped in 1st again (yay). After sitting a while the gearbox started working correctly again, but I plugged in MES anyway and got this:

 

P1743 Clutch Sensor Signal High Fatal

P1770 Accelerator Pedal Signal Invalid Signal Stored

P1760 Brake pedal switch No signal Stored

P1769 Pump driving relay stuck Invalid signal Stored

P1758 Clutch Solenoid valve current No signal Stored

 

After I cleared the error codes though, the gearbox started misbehaving again. It can engage 1st and 2nd with the engine running, but not Reverse. The same applies with the engine not running, the Selespeed pump is running though. On running MES again no new error codes are displayed so far, but the gearbox is still misbehaving at this point.

 

It's raining and dark now, so I'd try recalibrating the clutch rod length tomorrow, but I've checked and the fluids are sufficient, and everything seems to be alright apart from a possible melted casing at sockets for the big black relay.

 

Is there any part that is faulty in this case? Thanks!

[Smaky 73]

Replace the pump, the relay holder and the relay.

 

I suspect the pump is worn out and is drawing extra current through the relay which has overheated and melted the terminal slots.

[leongsoon 8]

Hi Smaky! I've done the following:

 

1. Replaced the relay and socket

 

2. Checked pump motor, all seems to be fine with no unusual wear

 

3. Checked the pump and all seems good as well

 

The problem is, I think I might have reassembled the pump the wrong way:

 

The first time I put the pump back together, I had the two figure 8 pieces assembled with the notch on one side, I think this made the created a lock and no oil could get to the exit side of the pump as it was still dry when i disassembled it again.

 

The second time I put it back with one notch to the right and one notch to the left, I checked and oil is squirted out of the pump when the motor runs. However, the pump runs for a long time yet never manages to get anything above 10 bar of pressure.

 

When removing the pump, I removed the hose that connects the Selespeed actuator and reservoir, does this have any effect? Could you tell me the correct arrangement in order to put the pump back properly again?

 

Thanks!

[leongsoon 8]

Managed to put the pump back correctly! Car seems ok for now! Full report to come

[Smaky 73]

I await the report, but the brushes are in the motor, there's no need to strip the pump section.

[leongsoon 8]

OK, so a week and 150km later, the car hasn't really misbehaved again, I can probably safely declare the car is fixed, for now! It did lost even gears and Reverse once on Tuesday but I think that can be attributed to a dirty connection or clutch rod length (28.98mm) so I'll recalibrate that later!

 

Anyway, while trying to fix the car I checked the following:

Carbon brushes still sufficiently long and wires are welded properly

 

Pump motor armature looks alright as well apart from some wear around the crown, so I cleaned the carbon from the slots and put it back together again

 

Pump internals look good as well with everything fitting nicely, no nicks or shears anywhere. I think the correct way to reassemble the pump is with the shaft that couples with the motor near the top, pointy side of gasket pointing left, the 2 figure 8 pieces have to be assembled so that the 2 notches are on the right side. This way the pump just runs for a while and the oil pressure is quite good, dropping from 54 to 44 in about 48 seconds at idle. Gotta replace the EV seals when I've got the time!

 

The relay socket was really brittle though, so I just crushed the whole thing when replacing it! The wires are still fine, so I just replaced the plastic holder and relay, this way I don't have to use my crap soldering skills

 

I've no idea what I did but it seems the Selespeed pump runs a lot quieter now, so quiet that I sometimes have trouble hearing if it actually runs when I open the driver's door or turn the key to MAR, but when it's really quiet around me I can hear it run, so I suppose it's ok.

[Smaky 73]

There's more than enough meat on those crushes, you can see the wear on the comm there but the gaps are clear so there's no problem there, The pump internals have never caused an issue to date for anyone afaik, and slight whir as it works is as good as it gets, I would say it was just the dust in the motor which was the problem.

[leongsoon 8]

Haha good to know that the pump internals won't be causing any problems, I just had to make sure. Even better would be if I'd known earlier; that would have saved me the trouble of taking the pump out and reassembling it so many times thru trial and error, was definitely not fun haha! I did clean out quite some dust from the motor housing though, so that could be the culprit!

 

Thanks a lot for the advice!

[leongsoon 8]

Hi! I'm back with a different, or maybe similar problem! Since the last problem with gears randomly selecting, the fix have gotten rid of the problem and it has not resurfaced since. However, on 3 occasions when the car has been left parked in the rain, it will only select 1st gear after starting. On the first occasion I managed to put the car into R normally after starting, but after a few seconds the car jumped out of gear.

 

I can select 1st if I'm lucky, but if I play with the shifter more, it will just straight lose all gears and blink N or 1. When this happens I wouldn't be able to start the car, but I'm pretty sure the car is in neutral cause I can push it aside and park it for the night. The first 2 times this happened the car started after a few tries and I managed to limp home in 1st gear, both times, I restarted the car once I reached home and it starts working normally again. Sent it to the workshop and they did some repairs to the Selespeed wires.

 

The third time it happened a few weeks back, the display kept flashing 1 and I had no luck the whole night. It started in the morning and I managed to get in 1st and drive to the workshop. This time around they replaced the Selespeed wires and connector beside the battery. I've asked them on a few occasions but they said the actuator sensors have been checked and are fine.

 

All this time the Selespeed have been behaving really well with no missed shifts or other anomalies, I guess I can even call it very reliable even haha!

 

Today though, the car was parked in the rain again, and I could only select 1st on starting, played around with the stick again and it finally lost all gears and couldn't start with 1 or N blinking. I left the car at a well-lit spot near my workplace and hopefully I'll be able to start and drive it to the workshop in the morning, but I'm still worried if we've missed anything. Could anything else other than the sensors and wires be causing the problem?

[leongsoon 8]

So, with the key at MAR this morning I was unable to get any gears, but once the car has started, I can engage, R, 1 and 2. On driving I can engage 1st to 3rd successfully, but it never managed to get 4th and skipped straight to 5th, never managed to downshift to 4th and 2nd either, so in the end I limped over to the workshop in 1st just to be safe, didn't really wanna lose all gears in the middle of the road.

 

The mechanic reckons that the Selespeed harness or loom from connecting the Selespeed ECU and actuator is damaged and water might have been getting into the circuit on rainy days, but as they do not know when they will have it in stock, I drove the car back after letting it sit around for 30 minutes. Even if the harness is in stock, they reckon it'll cost about 290GBP for a used one.

 

As expected once the car has run a bit and the engine bay temperature is up, the gears select properly again with the key at MAR or with engine on. The gears changed flawlessly all the way from the workshop back to the office. It's about to rain again, so hopefully it'll at least behave and let me drive it home tonight :Broken Heart: With the monsoon season coming up real quick, every day is gonna be full of suspense to say the least

 

Reckon the mechanics are spot on with their diagnosis? They're quite reputable here and have always solved the problems at first go.

[leongsoon 8]

OK, 3 months on and I have an update to this issue! Turns out the culprit was the Selespeed harness; there was a split in the wires somewhere after it exits the firewall near the ECU. The mechanics rewrapped the wires individually using quality tape before bunding the whole lot together. 2 months and at least 30 sessions in the rain later, I'm happy to report that the Selespeed has been working fine so far!

[leongsoon 8]

Hi! Been lurking around reading posts but finally I'm in need of help again!

 

In the past 2 weeks, my 156 Selespeed has been exhibiting the following behavior;

1. On turning the key to ON, sometimes N will blink or it will display 4. In both cases, I won't be able to get any gears or start the car until I disconnect and reconnect the Selespeed cable beside the battery.

2. When driving, it'll sometimes skip 3rd or engage 3rd very slowly. In the past 2 days it has started missing all odd gears or all even gears.

3. Also when driving, sometimes when shifting up from 2nd gear onwards, the gear will bounce into N. In this case if I try to shift up it'll go into 4th or 5th after a while. I'll then be able to shift normally.

4. Clutch rod length is at 28.4mm, but I haven't been able to calibrate as it keeps saying "Error due to absence of suitable conditions". The battery is new, and Selespeed pressure is quite normal at 55-57 bar.

5. When shifting from 1st to 2nd, there will sometimes be a crunching noise.

 

It's gotten so bad that I've had to restart the car 4 times to make the 8km drive home today.

 

2 weeks ago when connecting MES I got:

P1720 - Transmission/Gear Sys (12)

P1725 - Engine speed signal

 

Yesterday's codes:

P1757 - Even numbered gear engagement

P1758 - Clutch solenoid valve current

 

I checked with MES today but there have been no new error codes. The car had developed a leaky flywheel seal lately so I'm not sure if it's related, the clutch has currently been used for about 60000km so I was told to wait until it's due at about 80000km.

 

Could the clutch be due for replacement already, or is this also the clutch speed sensor? Any advice is much appreciated, thank you!

[Smaky 73]

I don't think it'll be the crank end seal that's leaking, I reckon that along with all the other problems you're having that the gearbox itself is the problem now, I'd say it is time to brace yourself for the worst, the box needs to come out, be stripped down and assessed completely, I'd suspect the front bearing to have failed which will allow the input shaft to wobble all over the place, this tears the gearbox front seal and allows the oil out all over the clutch and flywheel, many garages see oil at the engine/gearbox join and condemn the crank seal without investigating properly. If you're lucky the bulk of the gearbox will be reusable, but you will need a clutch kit as well as any gearbox parts that are damaged.

[leongsoon 8]

Reckon you're spot on as usual Smaky! Car was driving fine on Monday evening when I stopped for a pick-up with the engine running, when I got back on the car, the clutch started slipping, would have to hold it at about 2000rpm for about a second before it catches and moves.

 

I called the mech and he reckons that the input shaft is wobbling as well, and it might not be the crank seal after all. As a matter of fact, his 147 Selespeed just threw it's bearings off last week and he had to tow it back haha. Car is parked at the moment and I'll send it in for diagnosis and repair next week I think. Will update on this later, thanks again Smaky!

 

Oh yes, clutch and the slave bearings will be changed I think, but if the gearbox is knackered, would it be advisable to change with a used unit or repair the existing one? From what I understand most of the parts on my gearbox will not be damaged anyway.

[Smaky 73]

 

 

Oh yes, clutch and the slave bearings will be changed I think, but if the gearbox is knackered, would it be advisable to change with a used unit or repair the existing one? From what I understand most of the parts on my gearbox will not be damaged anyway.

 

The clutch will be soaked in oil and will need replacing, the realease bearing will be in kit form and the bits will fall out as the gearbox slides off, the gearbox will be repairable, but if it is one of the older ones it may need a new case as the selector arm holding loops will have snapped off, I'd get a replacement box and build a good one from the 2....if you can get a 147, GT or late 156 sele box as these are all reinforced to prevent the loops snapping off.

[leongsoon 8]

Hopefully I've got the reinforced gearbox then; my 156's the 2002 version with facelifted interior. Thank you

[Smaky 73]

It should be.

[leongsoon 8]

Hi Smaky! I've got an interesting question for you I think!

 

I might be able to acquire a complete set of engine, ECU, wiring, gearbox, keys, gauges, pedals, linkages, shifter and quite possibly clutch pump from a year 2000 Japan spec 156. It was working fine but the owner has had a V6 swap recently.

 

1. Will the ECU work on my year 2002 156? My car already has the engine from a 2000 Japan spec 156 that was swapped in some 6 years ago. I assume it's not a problem, but best depend on your expertise. In this case do we remove the Selespeed ECU and plug in the manual gearbox ECU? Or is it actually the engine ECU we're swapping?

2. The gauges are different coloured though, so is it possible to retain my current white gauges with the gear indicator?

 

I like the Selespeed, but since my variant is extremely rare in these parts (most 2002 versions here are JTS), I'm quite worried about the Selespeed harness giving problems again in the future and not being able to source replacement parts then, so I'm quite tempted to convert it. The 156 still costs quite a bit here, so manual parts and conversion cost is less than 20% of the car price, a viable option

[Smaky 73]

Just swap the selespeed ECU to start with, it all depends on whether it's a pre or post update ECU as both were used in the 2002 models.

[leongsoon 8]

Sorry, in my excitement I seemed to have left out a keyword from my last post and caused some confusion! So, the donor parts are from a year 2000 MANUAL 156, so we're talking about pedal box with clutch pedal, manual shifter & linkages, gearbox (if I understood what I read correctly it is somewhat different in terms of bell housing, lack of selector arm & sensor etc etc), black face orange-lit gauges with no gear indicator.

 

If possible, I only plan to swap all that is necessary for manual conversion, retaining the engine. Please correct me if I get any of the following wrong:

 

1. In order to get the engine to work properly, the Selespeed ECU is to be removed and the engine ECU replaced with the codebox. What I haven't understood is if we'll be needing ECUs for both engine and gearbox, or if there's an ECU for the manual gearbox at all, I reckon it's just a different manual engine ECU that does not require input from the Selespeed ECU.

 

Another alternative is shorting 2 pins in the Selespeed ECU, tricking it into believing that the gearbox is in N, allowing the engine to start and rev normally.

 

2. If the codebox is switched, putting the black chips from the 2000 red keys into my 2002 black flick keys will retain functionality of the starter switch, door locks, and remote boot release.

 

3. I read in an old reply of yours from AO i think, that swapping the gauges is optional. If I retain the Selespeed gauges, will the gear indicator still work? I don't mind if the gear indicator doesn't work as long as the tachometer does. Just gonna retain it till I find a suitable set of white gauges.

 

4. I just called the mechanic, a very reputable Alfa Romeo workshop in the country. He informed me that after conversion, the engine will not be as powerful as it was in Selespeed form. The engine will rev above 4500rpm but power is not as good he claimed. Could this be related to the fact that it'll still be running the electronic throttle?

 

It's worth noting that most conversions done here are Selespeed to V6 manuals since the cost of conversion to TwinSpark manual is not much cheaper, so not much expertise on TS manual conversion here.

Edited September 1, 2015 by leongsoon

[Smaky 73]

Why would a manual gearbox need an ECU?

 

Gauges from a manual WILL NOT work in a selespeed.

 

A selespeed ECU is no coded to the car, BUT they are specific to model 147/GT or 156, and they are specific to pre or post facelift.

 

AN ENGINE ECU etc from a manual will not run the engine (in conjunction with the gearbox) in a selespeed car.

 

Your "reputable" workshop is lying, the engine will produce the same power and run exactly the same if the car is converted to manual.

 

You also need the body loom for a manual to make all of this work as the lack of start relay, gear indications, sele ECU, pedal box and a few other obivous parts.

 

 

But as you note it's all cost, and I think it's just cheaper to go and buy a manual.

[leongsoon 8]

Yep, so that clears it, we'll be removing the Selespeed ECU and replacing the engine ECU for the conversion. I was considering using my old white Selespeed gauges after the manual conversion if possible. So basically by switching the key chips I was told my car will work as usual with the exception of the remote boot release. I can live with that I suppose!

 

I'm skeptical about the part saying the engine will produce less power once converted to manual too, so I'm trying to contact others who has a converted car to ask about their experience. Like you mentioned, I believe that if properly installed, there's no reason the manual should make less power compared to the Selespeed setup. That workshop is very reliable and fixes all problems at the first go, but as I noted we don't have too many TwinSpark manual conversions around these parts so I wouldn't discount the possibility of them missing something.

 

We can't just go out and buy an original manual 156 here haha; probably less than 10 available around the whole country; most 156s brought into Malaysia are pre-facelift Selespeeds or Q-Shifts. Only 2 out of roughly 10 GTAs here are Selespeed. We've got about 40 2002 156s with facelifted interior here, and less than half of those are TwinSparks (including mine), the rest are JTS, these are assembled in Rayong, Thailand and most commonly and errorneously referred to as Thai spec. Probably less than 20 SportWagons too, majority of which are pre-facelift and Q-Shift. There are some original Giugiaro facelift versions here, but just a handful and command a much higher price (7-8k GBP).

 

Only about 5 Brera here including a red Spider and a 3.2 Q4 brought in via personal AP, and only one black 159 SportWagon (brought in via personal AP too, which also happens to be the only TBI, most are JTS, 3.2 is extremely rare too). Alfa Romeos are an extremely rare breed here, so you can imagine the lack of knowledge and parts floating around haha. Even making it harder to buy the rare Alfa Romeos is the fact that they are mostly collected by diehard fans who have no intention of selling. Just in my small town we already have people who own 3, 5 or even 9 Alfa Romeos, that's a bit crazy considering cars are expensive here and we have to pay hefty road taxes for any vehicles displacing anything more than 2000cc. The good part is we don't have MOT here though, so once a car has passed inspection, it'll be good to go for years to come, until the next ownership transfer that is, otherwise it's all worry-free and we don't need to SORN it if we intend to store the car indefinitely.

 

The person who has the manual conversion parts now owns an original manual TwinSpark 156, only 2nd unit I've seen in 8 years!

 

It does take a certain degree of patience and passion to own an Alfa Romeo here considering we don't even have official dealer for Alfa Romeo and Fiat anymore, so we rely a lot on halfcut cars from Japan and maybe Singapore to get on top of part shortages!

[Smaky 73]

I'll go by paragraphs on this,

 

The gauges from a selespeed WILL work in a manual, but obviously you wont have the gear display and swapping the immobiliser chip to match the new ECU and code box from the manual WILL NOT stop the boot release from working, it has nothing to do with the immobiliser system.

 

If anything, your 2002 sele is 150Bhp, and is more than likely the electronic throttle, IF you are swaping out the Throttle body more the cable one then you'll need the exhaust manifold to match which gets rid of the precats and would actually lift the engines power to 155Bhp, so they clearly have no experience in this area.

 

Holy moly, I'm going to start exporting 156s, we can pick them up here for £1200 maximum for 2002 models of any engine (except GTA, they are about 3500)

 

For parts, if you have a Kia, Jeep or Chevvy dealer then they may be able to source what you need as they are part of the Fiat group now